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	<title>Comments on: The demise of the Gantt Chart in Agile Software Projects</title>
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	<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects</link>
	<description>Struggles of a Self-Taught Coder</description>
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		<title>By: Aleksey Drobnych</title>
		<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects/comment-page-1#comment-16283</link>
		<dc:creator>Aleksey Drobnych</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 15:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.techdarkside.com/?p=127#comment-16283</guid>
		<description>I support Gantt using for Agile DLC. See my post on this topic: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ganttzilla.com/blog/2009/08/gantt-for-agile-dlc&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://www.ganttzilla.com/blog/2009/08/gantt-for-...&lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I support Gantt using for Agile DLC. See my post on this topic: <a href="http://www.ganttzilla.com/blog/2009/08/gantt-for-agile-dlc" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.ganttzilla.com/blog/2009/08/gantt-for-.." rel="nofollow">http://www.ganttzilla.com/blog/2009/08/gantt-for-..</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Glover</title>
		<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects/comment-page-1#comment-16209</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Glover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 07:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.techdarkside.com/?p=127#comment-16209</guid>
		<description>David, I agree with you (and many others) that Gantt charts fly in the face of the wisdom of experience when managing projects the Agile (sane) way. 
 
However, there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.  My belief is that planning and tracking are still essential to any project, regardless of the methodology. 
 
I&#039;m a seasoned Agile developer and PM and so I rarely use MS Project for anything other than as a very specific type of Visio. 
 
However I still believe in a thing called Gantt ...   
&lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.teameffect.com/post/Team_Effect_equals_Agile_friendly_Gantt_charts.aspx&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://blog.teameffect.com/post/Team_Effect_equal...&lt;/a&gt; 
 
I welcome your thoughts on how this fits with your style of Agile management. 
 
Regards 
 
Jason </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, I agree with you (and many others) that Gantt charts fly in the face of the wisdom of experience when managing projects the Agile (sane) way. </p>
<p>However, there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.  My belief is that planning and tracking are still essential to any project, regardless of the methodology. </p>
<p>I&#039;m a seasoned Agile developer and PM and so I rarely use MS Project for anything other than as a very specific type of Visio. </p>
<p>However I still believe in a thing called Gantt &#8230;<br />
<a href="http://blog.teameffect.com/post/Team_Effect_equals_Agile_friendly_Gantt_charts.aspx" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://blog.teameffect.com/post/Team_Effect_equal.." rel="nofollow">http://blog.teameffect.com/post/Team_Effect_equal..</a>. </p>
<p>I welcome your thoughts on how this fits with your style of Agile management. </p>
<p>Regards </p>
<p>Jason</p>
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		<title>By: John Rusk</title>
		<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects/comment-page-1#comment-15433</link>
		<dc:creator>John Rusk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.techdarkside.com/?p=127#comment-15433</guid>
		<description>I have a couple of &quot;anti-Gantt&quot; quotes from ex-Microsoft staff on my site.  (Anti in the sense of suggesting that it&#039;s not really ideal for software development projects.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a couple of &#8220;anti-Gantt&#8221; quotes from ex-Microsoft staff on my site.  (Anti in the sense of suggesting that it&#8217;s not really ideal for software development projects.)</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Woodill</title>
		<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects/comment-page-1#comment-15432</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Woodill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 04:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.techdarkside.com/?p=127#comment-15432</guid>
		<description>Tate:

I thought your article was quite interesting, and as an Director IT who is trying to implement Agile development and a formal PMO at the same time, we&#039;re definately struggling with how to pick the best tool set for managing projects in an agile context.  

I have put a response on my blog (see URL) as I think that there are ways to use MS Project successfully in an agile context as long as you a) change the way you use the tooling to make it way more efficient (I have some suggestions on this on my blog); b) use GANTT charts at the appropriate level of detail (e.g. I agree that trying to put a bunch of micro-dependencies in your plan is overkill); c) use it more for macro-planning instead of micro-tracking.

See my blog post on the subject - would be interested in your experience and feedback.

All the best,
Chris Woodill</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tate:</p>
<p>I thought your article was quite interesting, and as an Director IT who is trying to implement Agile development and a formal PMO at the same time, we&#8217;re definately struggling with how to pick the best tool set for managing projects in an agile context.  </p>
<p>I have put a response on my blog (see URL) as I think that there are ways to use MS Project successfully in an agile context as long as you a) change the way you use the tooling to make it way more efficient (I have some suggestions on this on my blog); b) use GANTT charts at the appropriate level of detail (e.g. I agree that trying to put a bunch of micro-dependencies in your plan is overkill); c) use it more for macro-planning instead of micro-tracking.</p>
<p>See my blog post on the subject &#8211; would be interested in your experience and feedback.</p>
<p>All the best,<br />
Chris Woodill</p>
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		<title>By: David Christiansen</title>
		<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects/comment-page-1#comment-15430</link>
		<dc:creator>David Christiansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 20:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.techdarkside.com/?p=127#comment-15430</guid>
		<description>I totally agree - good architecture is dark art. I&#039;m not convinced there is such a thing as a methodology or process that can produce good architecture.  I&#039;m with you Tim - hoping we find a better way but not sure we will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree &#8211; good architecture is dark art. I&#8217;m not convinced there is such a thing as a methodology or process that can produce good architecture.  I&#8217;m with you Tim &#8211; hoping we find a better way but not sure we will.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects/comment-page-1#comment-15429</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 18:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.techdarkside.com/?p=127#comment-15429</guid>
		<description>We all seem to agree so far that &quot;big up front architecture&quot; is bad -- bad enough to go in the trash.  Bye bye BUFA.  Tate implies that &quot;test and refactor&quot; is its replacement.  David C offers a guiding principle: “make decisions at the last responsible moment.” 

David&#039;s suggestion is good, but let’s face it, applying this principle is strictly dark art.  It requires A-plus judgment to know when “the last possible moment” is at hand or even when it’s approaching.  In the fray of a complex project with team members bringing different perspectives, it&#039;s really really hard to make those judgments well enough to achieve satisfying results.  That’s my experience.

Any method (or set of principals, or whatever we call Agile) must be evaluated on its ability to produce results repeatably.  When it comes to architecture, I believe that Agile is not there yet.  I guess I am guilty here of pointing out a problem but not offering a solution.   Heck, maybe we&#039;re stuck; we have to accept that good architecture comes from really smart people and magical teams, and that&#039;s it.  I hope not, and I plan to keep thinking about it and looking for some effective practices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We all seem to agree so far that &#8220;big up front architecture&#8221; is bad &#8212; bad enough to go in the trash.  Bye bye BUFA.  Tate implies that &#8220;test and refactor&#8221; is its replacement.  David C offers a guiding principle: “make decisions at the last responsible moment.” </p>
<p>David&#8217;s suggestion is good, but let’s face it, applying this principle is strictly dark art.  It requires A-plus judgment to know when “the last possible moment” is at hand or even when it’s approaching.  In the fray of a complex project with team members bringing different perspectives, it&#8217;s really really hard to make those judgments well enough to achieve satisfying results.  That’s my experience.</p>
<p>Any method (or set of principals, or whatever we call Agile) must be evaluated on its ability to produce results repeatably.  When it comes to architecture, I believe that Agile is not there yet.  I guess I am guilty here of pointing out a problem but not offering a solution.   Heck, maybe we&#8217;re stuck; we have to accept that good architecture comes from really smart people and magical teams, and that&#8217;s it.  I hope not, and I plan to keep thinking about it and looking for some effective practices.</p>
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		<title>By: David Christiansen</title>
		<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects/comment-page-1#comment-15427</link>
		<dc:creator>David Christiansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 11:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.techdarkside.com/?p=127#comment-15427</guid>
		<description>I like Tim&#039;s comment because it underscores one of the fundamental problems of software development, no matter how you do it (as far as I can tell). It&#039;s hard to create an architecture that will meet all your needs, whether you do it upfront or through evolution.

One of the hardest things about trying to do upfront architecture well is that you are trying to lay the groundwork for solving a problem at a point in time when you understand the problem least. 

Poppendieck talks about this in Lean Software Development, about having a short architectural sprint that touches enough of the application to help the team get a solid understanding of the problem space.  I am in the middle of a sprint like this in my current project, and to tell you the truth it doesn&#039;t feel as productive as my regular approach, but I&#039;m going to stick with it.

I think some upfront architecture is frequently necessary, but extensive, all-encompassing designs are not helpful. A guiding principle in creating such architectures is to &quot;make decisions at the last responsible moment.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like Tim&#8217;s comment because it underscores one of the fundamental problems of software development, no matter how you do it (as far as I can tell). It&#8217;s hard to create an architecture that will meet all your needs, whether you do it upfront or through evolution.</p>
<p>One of the hardest things about trying to do upfront architecture well is that you are trying to lay the groundwork for solving a problem at a point in time when you understand the problem least. </p>
<p>Poppendieck talks about this in Lean Software Development, about having a short architectural sprint that touches enough of the application to help the team get a solid understanding of the problem space.  I am in the middle of a sprint like this in my current project, and to tell you the truth it doesn&#8217;t feel as productive as my regular approach, but I&#8217;m going to stick with it.</p>
<p>I think some upfront architecture is frequently necessary, but extensive, all-encompassing designs are not helpful. A guiding principle in creating such architectures is to &#8220;make decisions at the last responsible moment.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects/comment-page-1#comment-15426</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 00:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.techdarkside.com/?p=127#comment-15426</guid>
		<description>I am a project manager turned developer, and I consider myself an &quot;Agile&quot; practitioner.  I quite strongly agree with everything in your post except one thing.  

The post implies that the resulting architecture will be satisfactory -- automated testing plus refactoring will take care of it, no need address it strategically.  Well, from what I have seen &quot;emergent architecture&quot; often ends up as Rube Goldberg architecture.  A little time pressure, slight team disharmonies, one or two weak team members, etc, and things can get pretty tangled up under the hood.  Yet all tests pass.

I guess I agree with Julie that some strategic planning is needed.  It&#039;s not too hard to quickly grasp enough about an application to make some provisional architecture decisions and get started on some foundation and framing work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a project manager turned developer, and I consider myself an &#8220;Agile&#8221; practitioner.  I quite strongly agree with everything in your post except one thing.  </p>
<p>The post implies that the resulting architecture will be satisfactory &#8212; automated testing plus refactoring will take care of it, no need address it strategically.  Well, from what I have seen &#8220;emergent architecture&#8221; often ends up as Rube Goldberg architecture.  A little time pressure, slight team disharmonies, one or two weak team members, etc, and things can get pretty tangled up under the hood.  Yet all tests pass.</p>
<p>I guess I agree with Julie that some strategic planning is needed.  It&#8217;s not too hard to quickly grasp enough about an application to make some provisional architecture decisions and get started on some foundation and framing work.</p>
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		<title>By: David Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects/comment-page-1#comment-15425</link>
		<dc:creator>David Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.techdarkside.com/?p=127#comment-15425</guid>
		<description>I think it is a whole lot simpler to determine why Gantt charts are on the way out. They represent a deterministic approach to planning that locks in decisions early (even if MS Project was originally intended as a forecasting and modeling tool, it&#039;s not the way it used).

Agile projects embrace Real Option Theory and its Lean/Toyota manifestation that says &quot;make a decision at the last responsible moment.&quot; So for example, resource allocation should be made at the last responsible moment and hence resource leveling in a plan is pointless.

Much of the task dependency graphing in a Gantt chart is a side-effect of resource allocation, which in an agile project isn&#039;t done until the last responsible moment. Hence, it is meaningless to try and graph dependencies. And hence, Gantt charts are useless.

David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is a whole lot simpler to determine why Gantt charts are on the way out. They represent a deterministic approach to planning that locks in decisions early (even if MS Project was originally intended as a forecasting and modeling tool, it&#8217;s not the way it used).</p>
<p>Agile projects embrace Real Option Theory and its Lean/Toyota manifestation that says &#8220;make a decision at the last responsible moment.&#8221; So for example, resource allocation should be made at the last responsible moment and hence resource leveling in a plan is pointless.</p>
<p>Much of the task dependency graphing in a Gantt chart is a side-effect of resource allocation, which in an agile project isn&#8217;t done until the last responsible moment. Hence, it is meaningless to try and graph dependencies. And hence, Gantt charts are useless.</p>
<p>David</p>
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		<title>By: julieB</title>
		<link>http://www.techdarkside.com/the-demise-of-the-gantt-chart-in-agile-software-projects/comment-page-1#comment-15424</link>
		<dc:creator>julieB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.techdarkside.com/?p=127#comment-15424</guid>
		<description>Well, yes.  I would like to argue.   Not in favor of Gantt charts or specialists and especially not in favor of more MS Project.     

I appreciate the vast majority of agile principles, especially pair programming.   I&#039;m quite shocked anyone would be surprised this is not the most efficient way of doing software development.   I learned OO that way (Smalltalk in fact) and still always learn something new when pairing.   Even if I&#039;m the one leading.

Refactoring is a fact of the software development life cycle.  That is if you have any real size to the application.

Developing in iterations, good.   Self-organization, good.   Less project management, good.   Fancy Gantt chart that doesn&#039;t reflect anything actual but impresses the powers that be, good.   

What I would like to argue for is some up front planning for all iterations.   Drawing up building plans before laying the foundation.  Not that these plans cannot be changed, but they need to be thought out in whole before beginning work.   

In a game of chess, you must use both strategy and tactics.   Strategy to set out long-term goals for the game.   Tactics are immediate manuvers that take you toward the long-term goal.   You have a plan.   You&#039;ve thought though how to get there.   You are able to think through the tactics that will get you there.    Of course, your opponent will throw some curves at you and you&#039;ll need to re-adjust your strategy as you go on.    But you always have a long-term plan.     Your focus is never just the next move.

I guess I think of software projects the same way.   You have to think it out beginning to end.   As you move through iterations, things will adjust, but you have to work on the whole picture.    Looking at only the requirements in any single iteration without regard for the end result will not get you where you need to go.   Or at least that is the part of agile that I can&#039;t comprehend.   

For instance, I know I need to build a house.   How can you start building the first floor without at least first thinking through the layout of the second floor?    What if after building the first floor, we take a look at the second and find out the house needs to be two feet longer.    I can refactor the first floor walls but it is going to take a lot of work.  If I had just taken some time to think through the big picture, discussed and confirmed it with the powers that be, I wouldn&#039;t have to move walls.    Some up front planning and confirmation and my level of refactoring would be more like having to choose a different color paint or rearranging the furniture.   Much easier and much less stressful.

In short, I argue in favor of knowing what your dependencies are up front.     Because they are there.   Even if you don&#039;t have a Gantt chart to prove it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yes.  I would like to argue.   Not in favor of Gantt charts or specialists and especially not in favor of more MS Project.     </p>
<p>I appreciate the vast majority of agile principles, especially pair programming.   I&#8217;m quite shocked anyone would be surprised this is not the most efficient way of doing software development.   I learned OO that way (Smalltalk in fact) and still always learn something new when pairing.   Even if I&#8217;m the one leading.</p>
<p>Refactoring is a fact of the software development life cycle.  That is if you have any real size to the application.</p>
<p>Developing in iterations, good.   Self-organization, good.   Less project management, good.   Fancy Gantt chart that doesn&#8217;t reflect anything actual but impresses the powers that be, good.   </p>
<p>What I would like to argue for is some up front planning for all iterations.   Drawing up building plans before laying the foundation.  Not that these plans cannot be changed, but they need to be thought out in whole before beginning work.   </p>
<p>In a game of chess, you must use both strategy and tactics.   Strategy to set out long-term goals for the game.   Tactics are immediate manuvers that take you toward the long-term goal.   You have a plan.   You&#8217;ve thought though how to get there.   You are able to think through the tactics that will get you there.    Of course, your opponent will throw some curves at you and you&#8217;ll need to re-adjust your strategy as you go on.    But you always have a long-term plan.     Your focus is never just the next move.</p>
<p>I guess I think of software projects the same way.   You have to think it out beginning to end.   As you move through iterations, things will adjust, but you have to work on the whole picture.    Looking at only the requirements in any single iteration without regard for the end result will not get you where you need to go.   Or at least that is the part of agile that I can&#8217;t comprehend.   </p>
<p>For instance, I know I need to build a house.   How can you start building the first floor without at least first thinking through the layout of the second floor?    What if after building the first floor, we take a look at the second and find out the house needs to be two feet longer.    I can refactor the first floor walls but it is going to take a lot of work.  If I had just taken some time to think through the big picture, discussed and confirmed it with the powers that be, I wouldn&#8217;t have to move walls.    Some up front planning and confirmation and my level of refactoring would be more like having to choose a different color paint or rearranging the furniture.   Much easier and much less stressful.</p>
<p>In short, I argue in favor of knowing what your dependencies are up front.     Because they are there.   Even if you don&#8217;t have a Gantt chart to prove it.</p>
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